~5 minutes reading 🕑

Tue, 15 December 2015

← Back to articles

Hacker News answers

Today, Kinto was featured on Hackernews. We take this as a great milestone for the project, even if it also comes with some sort of pressure and stress :)

Since a few questions emerged from the thread there, we thought it'd be appropriate to provide some answers here.

What does this name mean?

Kinto-un is the name of the Flying Nimbus in Dragon ball. It's said that "the cloud can only be ridden by someone with a pure heart". Oh, well.

Maintaining a service is hard

The main benefit of Firebase and Parse is that you don't have to run them.

That is true. We want to make it very easy to deploy / use. We can even imagine to allow developers to run a Kinto instance in one-click on DigitalOcean, Heroku or Bitnami. We've started by making the integration easy on Always Data.

By the way, if someone runs a public Kinto instance and wants to charge for its usage, that's completely fine!

At Mozilla, we just can't rely on third parties like Firebase or Parse for critical data.

If you read french, we've written an article about our vision on self-hosting (yes, we need to translate it! Any help would be welcome on this front.)

Are we using this in production?

We have different services that are leveraging Kinto:

  • The (now dead) reading-list project was using one of the first versions of Kinto
  • We have made Syncto: a service which exposes the API of Kinto and talks with Firefox Sync in the background, so that FirefoxOS developers can use the Kinto.js library

We are currently building (for 2016):

Kinto.js has landed in Firefox for that purpose.

Offline-first support

One of the core ideas behind Kinto.js is that it should be offline first: all operations can be done when online or offline, and the data are synchronized when the connection goes back to normal.

Also, as we ship to these platforms, expect to see Android and iOS offline-first clients coming along.

How can you communicate with us?

Realtime updates, what about Kinto?

When a record is modified, Kinto sends a notification on a pubsub channel. We integrated and WebPush very recently. Currently, the notification payload contains the old and new version of the record. We plan on making improvements, like sending diffs only. #babysteps #ftw!

Also, the current mecanism does not allow to send write operations via websockets. Those are only sent via the REST API. We were recently talking about abstracting the protocol into something different, but it's undecided as of now.

You're missing an administration panel!

This isn't actually true! One of our current focus is on an admin panel.

It's still fairly new but already available and useful.

Why not building on top of CouchDB / PouchDB?

We do realize CouchDB exists, and even think it's the best solution for a lot of use cases. One of the first thing we did when we faced our first uses cases was to see if CouchDB was a good choice for us, and eventually decided to not go for it. You can read more about the rationale on our decision on the article

What we are doing with Kinto differs from what Couch/Pouch provide, in a bunch of different ways. We don't actually want to step on each other toes, and believe that Kinto and Pouch/Couch could actually live and be happy together (we were even discussing last week about doing a bridge to Pouch in Kinto.js)

Now we need to let you with an explanation of how Kinto and Couch differs!

Kinto did the choice to not store the revisions that can be used for master-master replication. One benefit out of it is that you don't need to compress your database, resulting in smaller datasets.

It also means that we have a harder time dealing with conflicts, since we cannot perform three way merges. We decided to let the application developers manage conflicts — with user prompts or specific business logic for example — and it fits our use cases pretty well.

Couch/Pouch also means that we had to deploy, scale and maintain technologies that we don't master, and to which we weren't confident to contribute (CouchDB is Erlang) whereas one of the original goals of Kinto is to be ops friendly.

Couch / Pouch is built on top of the concept of one database per user, and only syncs entire databases. This is improving now, though.

As Dale Harvey pointed out, Kinto wants to handle fine-grained permissions. After looking at how Couch is built and how complex it would have been to include these fine-grained permissions in the protocol, we decided it would be easier to actually do it from the ground up. We are aware of the implementations of ACLs on top of Couch and don't think their tradeoffs are worth it.

There is a comparison with CouchDB (and many other solutions) in our documentation.

Since the two solutions are solving slightly different problems, we will make our best to guide the users towards the best for their use-case. We also plan to extend this comparison table to compare products rather than server solutions.

We are also developing X / I wonder how it compares with X

A few years ago, we built Daybed, a similar project which never had the chance to be famous. At the time, the page Mobile Backend as a service did not even exist on Wikipedia. In early 2015, we decided to reboot the idea, based on concrete use-cases that we had at Mozilla. It was not especially mobile oriented, but each project milestone lead us to an ecosystem that is rich enough to be compared with MBAAS.

We realize there are many (many) alternatives in the wild, like or just to mention FOSS. Of course, Parse could also be released under an open-source license some day.

For us, it mainly means that Kinto was a good idea!

We are a team of 5, and we don't pretend to knock down the tech of big companies. We build Kinto with some ideals: a simple solution for simple needs that is fully open-source.

We make our best to be transparent and humble, but there are so many solutions out there. We probably missed many of them. So please help us guide the users to choose the best solution for their use-case in our overview page!

Revenir au début